Memories of our father Edward Albert Kirtley (1887 - 1948)
Allan - You were born in 1921 in Southwick, Sunderland
Stan - Yes, in Lumley Street.
Allan - What are your first memories of Dad, or Mum and Dad?
Stan - I haven’t any of when we were in Lumley Street. I was too young. But we moved to another part of Southwick, Broadsheath Terrace when I was about four or five and I started school there.The one thing I remember about school was that I pulled the pigtail of the girl who sat in front of me and I got caned or slapped - I can’t remember which. Anyway, that was school.
Allan - And what was Dad doing at the time?
Stan – As far as I know, he was an electrician at Hylton Colliery.
Allan - He used to be a winder, didn’t he? I think that's what Mum told me.
Stan - That I don't remember.
Allan - It was probably before the War. [WW 1]
Stan - My first memory of him working was as an electrician at Hylton Colliery. I remember there was a long slag tip with an overhead trolley that used to tip out the slag from the pit. And I remember one day thinking I'd meet him from work, and I walked along the top of the tip, or along part of it, by which time I was as black as the ace of spades, and got really told off.
Allan - That was his reaction was it? Was he not pleased to see you?
Stan - Oh, yes. Well, he didn’t see me then. He didn’t come home via the tip - he came home by the roadway, but I wasn’t clever enough to think of that.
Allan - And what are your earliest memories of him? Was he strict?
Stan - Yes, in a nice sort of way. He was firm. I think it would be better to say firm than strict. He had a good sense of humour, a very dry sense of humour. You very rarely saw him laugh, as such, more a smile.
Allan - But dry humour, some of which I suppose at that age went over your head?
Stan - Oh, absolutely.
Allan - And was Arthur [our half-brother] living at home then?
Stan – I think he was for the first few years, but at some time he went to Liverpool on a course and went to sea. He wasn’t a deck hand, or anything like that. He was training to be an officer.
Allan - He came back on leave occasionally, I suppose?
Stan - The first time I remember seeing him - and my memory may be playing tricks - was when we had moved to Bournemouth and we were living in Parkstone.
Allan - So when the move came - and Mum told me some of the story - was Dad out of work for a bit around 1926?
Stan - He might have been, but I wouldn’t have known.
Allan - I think she said that he was looking for a job, and his sister, Auntie Belle, and her husband Uncle Fred, had got positions down in Bournemouth - he was a chauffeur [in 1911 he was a chauffeur for Sir Hugh Douglas Blackett at Matfen Hall] and she was a cook.
Stan - When I knew them, they were running a boarding house in Bournemouth. It was much later that Uncle Fred got a job as a taxi driver, but Auntie Belle still ran the boarding house. When we went to Bournemouth first of all, the boarding house was in Cotlands Road. They moved to Wellington Road about the time I started at Bournemouth School. Later on, they moved to 1, Beechey Road.
Allan - Oh, is that what it was? And they sent him the Bournemouth papers. Do you remember the move from Sunderland to Bournemouth?
Stan - Vaguely. I do know that at that time Auntie Belle and Uncle Fred had a boarding house, and I do know that Dad wanted a job down there. Whether he got it before he left, or whether he got it when he got there, I haven’t the faintest idea. I do remember that before we left Sunderland, he made a portable wireless set. Up to that time, if you wanted to receive the wireless, you had to have a long aerial strung along the back yard. He wrapped the aerial around inside a box radio and put it in the middle of Broadsheath Terrace where we lived, so all the neighbours could hear a wireless with no visible aerial. It was quite an innovation at the time. We then went to live with Auntie Stella [Mum's sister] in Bishop Auckland until he'd sorted himself out in Bournemouth, and managed to get a bungalow in Parkstone.
Allan - And when he went to Bournemouth, the job he got, was that working for some sort of electrical shop?
Stan - Yes. He got a job with a firm called Adams Brothers in Westbourne - a radio and electrical shop. They only had the one shop then. Later they had a second one in Moordown, but at the time, they only had the one. That was at 8, Grand Parade, Westbourne.
Allan - Were you living there?
Stan - No, we were in Parkstone, in the bungalow. I went to the local school, of course. After a few years Dad managed to get the rent of the top flat over the shop. There were three flats above the shop and we were in the attic one. We were in there for a couple of years and then we were able to move down to the first floor flat (we missed the middle one), where we lived for quite a while until we moved to the house in Moordown.
Allan - 115, The Grove. I think Mum told me that he actually bought the bungalow in Parkstone, but he left that - something about house prices going down - and he gave the keys back to the building society, or something.
Stan - I haven’t a clue on that. I was too young to worry about it, or know about it. I've no idea whether he bought it, rented it, mortgaged it...I wouldn’t know at all. I just know I lived in a bungalow in Parkstone, then a flat in Westbourne, and then in a house in Moordown.
Allan – I know he rented the house in Moordown, and after he died, Mum bought it. Which always surprised me, ‘cause I’ve got memories of it, but never knew it was rented. I think she said that the experience with the place in Parkstone put him off. So, when you moved to Moordown, was he still working in the shop or had he started at the college?
Stan – No, by then I think he had started at Adams Bros in Moordown, but very shortly after that he got a position as lecturer at the Bournemouth Municipal College, which is now part of Bournemouth University.
Allan - And have you got any memories of him coming home in a good mood, or a bad mood?
Stan - None at all.
Allan - And what about school and homework?
Stan - Ah yes. A lot of memories of that. He used to help me with my maths homework. .He always insisted that I tried to do it first, but if by bedtime it still wasn’t done, when I came down to breakfast I found the answer written out. He never gave me a lesson as such, but if I couldn’t do it he did it for me.
Allan - So he was a good teacher, would you say, in an informal way?
Stan - I don't know about that - he did the work for me. I remember that at the back of the house was an open patch of ground at the back of a tennis court…
Allan - I remember it
Stan …where a pony was kept now and then. I think it was a penny I used to get for every bucket of muck I collected for the garden.
Allan - And I know he was very clever with electrical stuff. He made me a train set out of non-preassembled parts, just after the War. Did that come out, that cleverness?
Stan - Oh yes. At that time - and this would be....1936,1937?...he was already putting television sets together.
Allan - I suppose there must have been some transmitter near....
Stan - No. It was called the Skip Distance. The only transmitter for television at that time was Alexandra Palace in London. The only people who normally received television were those living within a reasonable radius round London. But the signals went up to the Troposphere or Stratosphere or somewhere and bounced back again about 60 odd miles or more from Alexandra Palace. The gap was called the Skip Distance, and Bournemouth was able to get a fairly reasonable picture.
Allan - So did you have a television in the house?
Stan - We didn’t, no.
Allan - Not even when he was building them?
Stan - No. I remember going with him to someone's house where he had put one in and I saw it then. But he did show me how to make a wireless set.
Allan - You had a crystal set, didn't you?
Stan – Yes, I had a crystal set. That was before we moved to Westbourne. The coil was a wire wrapped round a jam-jar, with a bit of wood across the top with the cat’s whisker [the tickling wire and crystal] on, and terminals for the earphones. I used to have it by my bed, earphones on, and tickle the cat’s whisker until I got the right station, usually pop music of the day from a French station called Radio Fecamp.
Allan – Isn’t that what you had that’s in the picture of you in the glass paperweight, with you with long hair? [Stanley produces it.] That’s the one. Is it the same crystal set?
Stan – No, but it’s the same sort of thing but a much more elaborate one. That picture was taken when I was about one or two years old, at the back of the house in Lumley Street, Sunderland.
Allan - He was a very clever man. What about music? There was a piano at home, presumably? Did he play that at all?
Stan - As far as I can remember he never played it.
Allan - Could he not play?
Stan - Not as far as I know.
Allan - I thought Mum used to say he had a good ear.
Stan - He might have had a good ear, but I never remember him playing the piano.
Allan - What about singing in choirs, and things like that? Did he have no connection with music at all?
Stan - He must have sung in church, but I can't remember it. I remember us going to a Baptist Church when we first moved to Parkstone, but when we moved to Westbourne we joined the Methodist Church - after all, he was brought up as a Weslyan.
Allan - So no musical evenings round the piano with him playing, then. But Mum presumably used to play.
Stan - Oh yes, she played. After all, she taught me, as you know. She taught me the piano when I was about eight, living in Parkstone. When we moved to Westbourne I was sent to another music teacher with whom I stayed until I passed my Associated Board Exam Grade 8.
Allan - And if you had musical evenings with Mum playing, did he join in?
Stan - As far as I can remember there were no musical evenings.
Allan - Not even at Christmas?
Stan - Not as far as I can remember.
Allan - What about friends? Did they have a wide circle of friends? People from work ...?
Stan - Not as far as I know. Remember I was only a child at the time. People came round, but whether they were acquaintances or friends, I wouldn’t know. Usually, in those days children were pushed out of the way when friends came around. I was never involved.
Allan - What about later, when you were a teenager. I know you joined the County Court. But just before then, when you were at Bournemouth School, what about then? Did you have a different sort of relationship with him then?
Stan – No, no, the same. Usually he wouldn’t go to the cinema unless it was a film with Boris Karloff - probably playing Frankenstein's monster.
Allan - I think I've heard about that.
Stan - Of course he smoked like a chimney.
Allan - Yeah. How many did he smoke a day?
Stan - I wouldn’t know, but he used to smoke the strongest cigarettes.
Allan - Capstan Full Strength....
Stan - Yeah ... To a certain extent he was remote. He didn't appear to me to be remote but he was.... he was a bit remote but friendly remote. There was no question of him dangling me on his knee. I don't remember that ever happening. He was a bit remote in that respect.
Allan - So no overt signs of affection then?
Stan - No, none at all.
Allan - I suppose that was that generation. What about over the breakfast table? Did he talk, or was he quiet reading his News Chronicle?
Stan - I don't remember seeing him at the breakfast table. Either he'd gone to work or I had gone to school. It was different, of course when we were on holiday.
Allan - Where did you used to go?
Stan - Around the local area, such as on a paddle steamer trip to Swanage or Ventnor, or some of the places round Bournemouth. There were only a few occasions when we actually went away for a holiday...usually back up north. In those days; going away was an expensive business ....you didn't get paid holidays then, so you lost money. At the time we had an old short wheel-base Jowett with a dickie seat. I used to sit in the dickie seat whatever the weather. Once on the way up north we stayed on a farm near Kettering where Dad had been billeted during the war [at that time,1917, he was a Staff Sergeant in the Royal Engineers serving with No. 41 Anti-Aircraft Company round Birmingham]. I do remember having a really big farmhouse breakfast there. The farmer was a very clever man If a tractor was towing some kind of farm implement, a plough, scarifier, or whatever, when it came to the end of its run down the field, it had to make a wide circle to go back again, and of course so did the implement it was towing. So a patch of ground was left untreated. The farmer had the brilliant idea of making a large iron triangle - sides of 3 feet or so - and attaching it loosely to the rear of the tractor and the front of whatever he was towing, so that when he came to the end of his run, although the tractor had to make a wide loop, the triangle moved round and the implement being towed almost turned on its axis so there was no patch of untreated ground.
Allan - And did anyone take up the idea?
Stan - I've no idea. Remember this was in the early 30's. I don't know what happened to it after then. But anyway, then we went up to Darlington to see Mum's sister, Aunt Stella and her husband, Uncle Anty. Oh yes, my childhood was fun. There was no nastiness at all. It was a firm pleasantness, if you like.
Allan - Of course he didn’t drink, did he? He was teetotal.
Stan - He was. Once during the war, [WWII] I persuaded him to go down to the Hollies and have a half pint. That was the first time I'd known him to take drink.
Allan - And how did he get on with that?
Stan - Very slowly and not very well.
Allan - I bet he had to be bullied into it, going down there?
Stan - It took a lot of persuasion.
Allan - And what about after he'd had the half pint? Was he measurably drunk?
Stan - Oh, no. He drank it and he was all right afterwards.
Allan - And what about the Masons?
Stan - He wasn't in the Masons.
Allan - I thought he was.
Stan - No. Uncle Anty was.
Allan - So why was I offered the chance to go to a Masonic school then? I thought it was because he was in it - it must have been Uncle Anty then ...or maybe because you were in it. Were you in it by 1948?
Stan - I became a Mason in 1947.
Allan - Ah, that could be it then… You remember Arthur coming home occasionally, presumably?
Stan - Oh yes. I've got some photographs of him in his uniform.
Allan - And how did he get on with Mum and Dad? There must have been some tension with him being Dad's son, and his father re-marrying someone 10 years younger.
Stan - Remember I was only a child, and as far as I was concerned there was no tension.
Allan - Nor with Mum?
Stan - Not as far as I knew.
Allan - So is there anything else?.Are there any other aspects that come to mind? He was a good father, obviously, and a very clever man.
Stan - Yes, an excellent father, and very clever. His death was a bit shattering. I was in India when I heard he was ill. No, sorry, the first thing I heard was a telegram saying that Dad had died. About five days later, I got the telegram saying he was ill. And it was because of that I got a compassionate posting home to help Mum sort things out. Whilst I was waiting to come back, I was posted as Station Adjutant at Shaibah near Basra in Iraq, but I wasn’t there for long.
Allan - Yes, I remember you coming home… I remember Dad coning down stairs, and not being well enough to go to work, and going back upstairs. And the next thing I remember - probably a week or so later - I was upstairs when the phone rang in the hall. I looked downstairs and Mum had taken the phone call and was crying. When I asked her why, she said it was sad music on the wireless. It was, of course, the news that Dad had died. I did go to see him once in hospital....
Stanley' recollections of his service in the R.A.F.
Allan - So now we move on to you in the Air Force. You were working in the County Court in Southampton at the outbreak of war, weren’t you?
Stan - Yes. I got my matriculation at Bournemouth School, and somebody suggested that I went into a finance company in Bournemouth.
Allan - Bowmakers?
Stan - That's right - I had an interview but didn't like the idea. Then somebody else said "Oh, you can have a job in a bank" - two banks offered me a job in Bournemouth, but I didn't like that idea either. And then someone else said, why don't you take the Civil Service exam? In those days, to become a Clerical Officer, you had to pass quite a stiff exam - at least like O - Level standard So I sat it, and passed. Eventually I had a letter saying "you have been appointed to the Lord Chancellor's Department of the High Court of Justice". I thought "Oh, posh!" We had my wig all ready! It turned out that I'd been posted as a clerk to the County Court in Southampton, which, of course, was part of the smallest branch of the Civil Service. The Lord Chancellor's Department covers quite a few things, actually it covers all the judiciary. Southampton had a judges court and a registrars court. Of course that meant going into digs in Southampton.
Allan - So you didn't go up and down on the train every day?
Stan - No, that was too inconvenient and too expensive. It was cheaper to get lodgings in Southampton and cycle home at weekends, which I did.
Allan - And you would have been seventeen when you started?
Stan - Yes, in the November of 1938. Anyway, war broke out in September 1939, and another chap in the office, who was already in the RAF Volunteer Reserve went off to war. I decided I would like to do the same, so off I went to the recruiting office and said "I want to join the navy." They laughed and said "no vacancies, we can't take you in". I said "Well, what have you got?" They said "What about the Air Force?" Well I certainly didn't want the Army, so I said "Yes, I'd like to be a pilot." Once again they smiled and said "We can't train pilots - we need them but we can't train them." So I said "Well what have you got so that I can go up in the air?" They said "You could be a wireless-operator/ air gunner." That sounded quite exciting so I said "Right, I'll sign up for that". They told me I couldn't sign on until I was eighteen. I was eighteen in the November so I asked if I could have Christmas at home before joining, to which they agreed. And on January 4th, 1940, I was called up.
Allan - And this was as an AC2 [Aircraftman 2nd class] was it?
Stan - Yes, the ranks were a bit different in those days. I went up to Padgate in Lancashire, in civvies, of course. I hadn't been kitted out with a uniform as yet. I got there about teatime to see two funerals coming out the front gate of the camp where I was going. It was a flu epidemic and chaps were dying off like flies. After about a week, a few of us in our intake found ourselves working as nursing orderlies in the various wooden barrack blocks that had been converted into temporary wards, helping the poor characters who'd got flu. Quite a few people died. It was a bad outbreak. One interesting thing happened at Padgate. Until then, all the forces drilled in four ranks, and we started our training learning to drill and march in four ranks, but after two or three weeks the order came through that all forces were to drill and march in three ranks, so we had to learn everything all over again. When you've never been in the forces, drilling and marching is not easy.
Allan - They didn't have a cadet force at Bournemouth School in those days?
Stan - They did, but it was an army one, and I didn't belong to it. We did six weeks at Padgate and I was saying to myself "any minute now I'm going to be up in the air". But no, there weren't any training places available so we were sent to various R.A.F. stations until there were.
Allan - Were you learning technical stuff?
Stan - No, no, I was learning how to drill, march, push a rifle around - never fire it of course. I went to Boscombe Down on Salisbury Plain and shovelled coal and did guard duties on Wellingtons in Norfolk, waiting for my course, which came through eventually and I was posted to the wireless operators school at Yatesbury in Wiltshire, just along the road from Marlborough.
Allan - And that was in March 1940?
Stan - Yes. I did the full 9 months wireless operators course there - aircrew - they trained both aircrew and ground operators, but I was on the aircrew course so I did fly. Once we got to certain stage of proficiency we were taken up each week in a Domine - a De Havilland twin-engine bi-plane that was called a Rapide as a civilian aircraft. The grass aerodrome next to the wireless school, from which we flew, was a pilot's initial flying school with Tiger Moths. The flying school moved somewhere else after a couple of months It's odd to think that some of the chaps being trained were probably in the Battle of Britain.
Allan - Do you remember your first flight?
Stan - Vaguely. There were six of us inside the aircraft with a corporal instructor, and we each had a wireless set in front of us.
Allan - So you didn't have time to be frightened?
Stan - You didn't have much time for anything, except working the radio and sending morse code. Anyway, in the summer, in the middle of our course a selection team came round and asked for volunteers for pilot training. And believe it or not, out of however many hundreds of us were there, only four of us were accepted. But they said "We can't take you yet, but we've got your name down." So I finished my course and became a fully fledged wireless operator - sparks badge and all. The rest of the course went to Wales to do their aircrew gunnery training while we hung around at Yatesbury until December when we were posted all round the country doing odd jobs. I was posted to a Hurricane squadron - No.3 Squadron, - which I had been told was stationed at Wick in the north of Scotland.
Allan - Just to interject, this would be about five or six months after the Battle of Britain?
Stan - Not so long as that - about three months.
Allan - But the kudos of being in the Air Force then, must have been sky-high.
Stan - Oh, yes. Anyway, as I said, in the December I was posted to Wick.
Allan - Sorry to butt in again, but were you still an AC2?
Stan - Oh yes, - in those days that was the highest rank you got after you'd finished your training. If you wanted to go higher, you had to pass a trade test Later on it was different, but in those days ranks meant something. Anyway, I had to go all the way up to Wick from London on a very crowded Service train called The Jellicoe Train I got to Wick just after lunch on Christmas Day - too late for the Christmas meal and nothing to eat - the cooks were drunk anyway - and the squadron had moved the previous week even further north to an aerodrome called Castletown, near Thurso. (You could see John O'Groats from there). On Boxing Day I went up on the mail wagon and joined the squadron. I was billeted in the local school, which had been taken over as barracks, and was allocated to B Flight. One week later the squadron was moved even further north to protect the Orkneys and Shetlands. I was in B Flight, which was sent to the Shetlands.
Allan - They weren’t trying to tell you something, were they?
Stan - Well I was going further and further north. One week after joining the squadron at Castletown, I was trundling up to the Shetlands in an old Harrow aircraft. I was with 3 Squadron in the Shetlands for about two or three months.
Allan - Was that learning to be a pilot?
Stan - No. I was a wireless operator servicing the radios in the Hurricanes. As a matter of interest, while we were there, the squadron shot down an enemy aircraft and they managed to get the German Cross off the side and had it displayed in the crew room. Many years later, when I was living in Cornwall, Norma and I took a holiday trip up to the Shetlands, and we had a V.I.P. tour round Sumburgh airfield (where I had been based) by the airport manager, and the cross was still there. Anyway, after I'd been there for a while, I was posted down into Scotland to a grass aerodrome near Elgin called something like Bogs - o - Main. No.17 Hurricane Squadron was there. I'd passed my A.C.1 trade test in the Shetlands, and it was a tough test - it was all practical, there was no written work, but a very difficult practical exam - and I became A.C.1 S.Kirtley. I wrote to Mum and said "Make sure you get the rank right when you write". I was put in charge of what was called a homer with two other wireless operators under me. It was rather like a Ford Transit with a tall fat pole up through the middle with an H shaped aerial on the top. The operator sat inside turning the pole with a big horizontal wheel at the base of the pole. When the pilot transmitted, you could get a bearing on him and give him a course to fly back to the aerodrome, hence it was called a homer. The Hurricanes had no navigational aids in those days so they relied on ground control.
Allan - And did you triangulate with others?
Stan - Well, sometimes you could do, but normally you didn't have to. You just gave the pilot a course to steer and with a bit of luck he got back to the aerodrome Anyway, I was there for a couple of months. We were billeted in a very old house in Elgin called Blackfriars Hough. It was owned by the Bibbys, the people who made the babies food, but had been requisitioned for the duration. It was quite a place, but of course there were a hell of a lot of us on bunk beds in every room. The sergeants were billeted in a place that stored whiskey. They couldn't get at it - it was stored in large vats with time locks on. That was the first time I ever saw 100 proof whisky - it looked like gin. When you shook it in the bottle, beads formed all round the edge, but I didn't taste it! Whilst I was there, the news came through that my pilots course was starting in Babbacombe, so off I went.and all four of us from Yatesbury joined up again. After all this time, we were old sweats. Everybody else on the course was brand new in the Air Force, in civilian clothes and a civilian gas mask in a cardboard case, until they were kitted out. We, naturally, showed off in our well-worn uniforms with the wireless operators badge on, and a rather scruffy service gas mask. We were soon told to smarten up and get new uniforms, but we transferred the sparks badge, of course.
Allan - And just to interject again, at any of the stations you were training at, did you ever experience any raids by the Luftwaffe?
Stan - No, none at all. Only when I was at Yatesbury and went on weekend pass to Southampton to see a girl friend. I experienced plenty then, as there was a heavy raid every Saturday I went there. I seemed to spend every Saturday night in an Anderson shelter. Going back to Babbacombe, we were a bit cheesed off when we found we had to learn the drill with the raw recruits. They were being taught all the stuff we had learnt eighteen months previously. Most of the drill sergeants were ex-professional footballers and had only been in the Air Force for a few months. Fortunately they realised it was a waste of time to teach us all the things we knew backwards, so with their connivance, we used to march down with the rest to the avenue of trees where we did all the drilling, and the four of us would sneak off into Babbacombe for the morning, getting back just in time to join up with the others and march back. So we never did drill there until the passing–out parade..
Allan - And the new recruits didn't resent that?
Stan - Oh, no, they knew we knew it backwards After that we went to Scarborough, which was an I.T.W. [Initial Training Wing] staying in The Grand Hotel. Again, a slight problem. Everybody had to learn Morse Code. Of course we were wireless operators and our passing out test speed had been 18 words a minute. While we were waiting at Yatesbury after the course was over, we had taken extra morse lessons and had got up to receiving Reuters at 22 words a minute,and even faster. The requirement for pilots was 8 words a minute, so they said we needn't take morse lessons but must take the test at the end. Well, the test came up and we all failed! All four wireless operators failed at 8 words a minute!
Allan - Why was that?
Stan - It was too slow.
Allan - You had too long to think about it, you mean?
Stan - Well the chap sending for the test wasn't a wireless operator. To give you an example, the letter F in morse code is dit dit dah dit - two dots, a dash and a dot. He was sending it dit.….dit.….dah.….dit, so the recruits could count it out right. At speed, we did rhythm morse, and F was d'd'dah dit and no way did you count dots and dashes. At speed we were writing down “ plain language” about one or two words after they had been sent. Anyway, we re-took the test later at a respectable speed, and of course, passed. Whilst we were there they selected a very few of us to go and train in America, and all four of us wireless operators were included in the selection.
Allan - This was under The Arnold Scheme, was it?
Stan - Yes. General Arnold was at that time in charge of the American Air Corps, and he suggested to President Roosevelt that, although the Geneva Convention prevented them doing anything direct to help us in the war, if we sent people over in civilian clothes and they went through the normal pilot training schools with the American Air Corps, they might get away with it. And that is what they did. Those of us selected were kitted out with a cheap grey suit that fitted where it touched, and a terrible black beret. The berets got thrown overboard on the trip across the Atlantic.
Allan - Had you done any piloting up to this point?
Stan - None at all.
Allan - So when did you go across?
Stan - In August 1941.
Allan - And where did you go?
Stan - First of all to No. 1 Manning Depot in Toronto, Canada. After a short time, and after we'd had our grey suits made to fit, we got on a train and went down all the way through Canada, and all the way through America down to Alabama.
Allan - Whereabouts?
Stan - Tuscaloosa. And that was where I did my first pilot training, on a PT 17 [Primary Trainer 7] Something like a Tiger Moth but a bit more powerful..
Allan - Still a bi-plane?
Stan - Yes, a bi-plane
Allan - And what about the first flight there? Was that exhilarating, scaring, or were you used to it?
Stan - Exciting. That was the first time I'd been up in an aeroplane handling the controls. The only other times I'd been up was in the old Harrow going up to the Shetlands, and, of course, when I went up in the Domines during my wireless training the year before. - The discipline was a bit fraught. American cadet pilots all had to be university graduates. At university, they'd gone a bit wild, as students do, so when they joined the military, they had to be brought down to earth with a bump. And, as far as we were concerned, the American discipline was a bit childish. To give you an example, you spent four weeks as lower classmen, and then the next lot came in and you became upper classmen. Any upper classman could stop a lower classman and say "Mister, hit a brace!" That meant coming rigidly to attention, eyes to the front. He would then say "Mister, you're a dodo. What is a dodo?" The lower classman would have to stand like an idiot and recite "Sir. I am a dodo. A dodo is a bird that has no wings. It cannot fly". And that was only one of many similar childish instances. On a Saturday morning when the officer came round the rooms on inspection (we were billeted two to a room, in bunk beds), the top blanket on your bed had to be absolutely taut, and the corners folded over at 45 degrees. The sergeant who was with the officer had a set- square to check the 45 degrees. Furthermore, he would flip a nickel on to the blanket and if it didn't bounce you'd had it. All your clothes in the wardrobe had to have the hooks pointing the same way, towards the rear, and all the clothes had to face the same way. There were many more petty rules and privileges for upper classmen. Consequently, particularly in one or two other schools where the upper classmen were American cadets, there were quite a few incidents and British cadets were chucked off the course. They went up to Canada and got their wings there.
Allan - And how did you get on with the Americans?
Stan - Very well. All our course, 42D, were Brits, as were the previous three, so our upper classmen were Brits. All the officers were American.
Allan - Were there also American trainees going through?
Stan - Not at our school. We were, of course, still forbidden to wear R.A.F. uniform. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour on December 7th 1941, that brought America into the war, had not yet happened. But when Armistice Day came on November 11th, we were given special permission to put on our uniforms for the parade. All the representatives of the American military were there, including the National Guard, all swinging their arms the regulation six inches. At the rear of the parade came the British cadets swinging their arms properly as we had been trained in U.K. I've got a picture of us all, proudly marching in our uniform probably better than we had ever done before.
Allan - And when did you hear about Pearl Harbour?
Stan - On the Sunday, December 7th.
Allan - And did you put on your uniforms then?
Stan - No. We weren’t allowed to until two days later when we had a directive from Washington saying that we could.
Allan - And what was the reaction of the Americans to you wearing uniform?
Stan -They were relaxed about it. After all they were more concerned about Pearl Harbour. By then I was at Gunter Field, Montgomery, the state capital.
Allan - Had you flown solo by then?
Stan - Oh yes. I'd flown about 40 hours solo by then.
Allan - How was your first solo flight?
Stan - Worrying but exciting. The pilot training was much longer at the American Schools than at the British Schools. We got 60 hours at Primary Training (on PT 17s) of which about two thirds were solo, then when we went to Basic Training at Gunter Field, Montgomery, where we flew a fixed under-carriage monoplane called a BT 13. We got another 60 hours, and then we went to Advanced Training School at Craig Field, Selma where we got another 60 hours on the AT 6 (we called it the Harvard). Subject to having successfully completed the whole course, 180 hours worth, you got your wings. We'd gone through the American training scheme so I was awarded American wings, and I'm entitled to wear them.
Allan - When you came back to the U.K., did you have to take any sort of test to get R.A.F. wings?
Stan – No, they were given to us at the same time as the American wings.
Allan - Did you know you were going to be a fighter pilot, rather than a bomber pilot?
Stan - Yes, they assessed us as we went through training and that was why I was sent to Craig Field on the AT6. Future bomber pilots went to Georgia to do their advanced training on twin engine aircraft.
Allan - So having been at Craig and finished all the training, what happened next?
Stan - Well, I went back to Canada and was commissioned as a Pilot Officer and purchased my officer’s uniform.
Allan - I know you went from AC2 to AC1. Did you go through anything like Flight Sergeant?
Stan - No. I became LAC (Leading Aircraftsman) when I started my training at Babbacombe, and I remained LAC right the way through until I finished my pilot training, and then I was commissioned. I thought I was going back to England, but the powers that be said I had to go back to Craig as an instructor. So back I went to Craig, did an instructor’s course and instructed both R.A.F. and American students on the AT6 for nine or ten months. During that time I was lucky enough to have the opportunity of flying the P40 Tomahawk and the P39 Aerocobra - my first flights in a real fighter - both of them were in service with the American Air Corps at that time.
Allan - Was this in 1942?
Stan - Yes.
Allan - So Pearl Harbour was the end of '41, then you carried on training and then did the instructing through '42 and beginning of ’43?
Stan - That's right. When I went on leave between courses, I was fortunate enough to go to New Orleans where I heard Fats Waller on the piano in a dingy little pub used by most of the musicians after they had finished their gig in the various night clubs - what a jam session! I also went to New York where I heard Hazel Scott playing boogie in her nightclub, Cafe Society Uptown (she also owned another nightclub called Cafe Society Downtown). At the beginning of 1943 I finished my tour of instructing and started on my journey back home via Canada. On the way back I visited Dad's cousins, the Pilettes, in Weirton, West Virginia. [Beatrice Pilette was the daughter of Dorothy Ann Kirtley, Dad’s aunt.] Going back through New York I met a chap who let me fly his Piper Cub with pontoons on, on the river - my first and only flight as pilot of a seaplane! In Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada, where we waited for a boat, I accompanied Larry Adler during a camp concert (he, of course, was playing the harmonica). Also waiting to return to U.K. were two Flying Officers, Jimmy Edwards and an ex-BBC chap David Porter. David wrote the lyrics for two operettas starring Jimmy Edwards and I wrote the music and played them for two highly successful camp shows.
Allan – And then you sailed back?
Stan – Yes, watching for submarines all the way.
Allan - What happened when you got back to England?
Stan - After a few hours refresher flights on Masters (a training aircraft), I went to a Hurricane Operational Conversion Unit at Annan in Scotland where I got about 50 hours on the Hurricane. An interesting fact about the Hurricane was that to operate the undercarriage and flaps, you had an H shaped gear change on the right side of the cockpit, so you had to swap hands and put the left hand on the stick so that your right hand could operate the undercarriage or flaps. But I'd always wanted to go on Spitfires, so I then went to a Spitfire O.C.U.
Allan - What was the attraction of Spitfires over Hurricanes?
Stan - I suppose the name, and the association with the Battle of Britain. On the early Mk. 1 Spitfire, there was no automatic retraction for the undercarriage. You had a pump lever on the right hand side of the cockpit. On take-off you had to change hands and pump up the wheels. You could always tell when a new pilot took off in a Mk. 1 because as the right hand pumped, the left hand also pumped and the aircraft undulated into the air. I did my Spitfire conversion and then joined 118 Squadron at Detling, near Maidstone. They were equipped with Spitfire 9s, quite a late model, and I flew them quite a while.
Allan - What sort of missions were you doing then?
Stan - Our squadron was designated a close escort squadron. There were two kinds of escort squadrons, and the close escorts flew quite close to the bombers. The ones who had the fun were the others who flew further out, all round. We weren’t supposed to do that - we had to stay close to the bombers in case the enemy got through the outer shield.
Allan - And did they ever?
Stan - Occasionally, but very rarely. At that time there were very few German aircraft about.
Allan - So what did you do when it did happen?
Stan - Usually a couple of fighters went off after whatever came in, but generally speaking it was the fighters in the outside shield that got the task. We got an awful lot of flak, though, because the ack-ack coming up at the bombers also came up at us. We also went on a few fighter sweeps over France, but the Germans were more concerned with Russia at the time, and they were probably also conserving their aircraft because they thought there was an invasion coming. So we didn't really see very much up there.
Allan - What were you attacking on the fighter sweeps? You weren't with bombers then, you were on your own.
Stan - The fighter sweeps were just that - flying round as a squadron, hoping that the enemy fighters would come up and fight.
Allan - And did they come up?
Stan - No, they never did. We did three or four fighter sweep from Detling, but they never came up at all. We just saw an awful lot of French countryside. The squadron had been on ops for quite a while before I joined them, and we were soon sent on rest up to the Shetlands and Orkneys .
Allan – When you were up in the Orkneys, didn’t you say you chased a German aircraft?
Stan - Yes, but I never saw him. Although the Spitfire wasn't really made for night fighting, we had to go up on night patrols. On one occasion, a Fokker Wolf Condor, a large four engined long-range bomber, had been on patrol over the Atlantic and was returning to Germany flying over Scapa Floe on the way. Two of us were on patrol over the north of Scotland at the time, so we were vectored to try and intercept him. My number two had to return to base with engine trouble so I chased him on my own half way across the North Sea, but I never caught up with him. I only just had enough fuel left to get back to base - it was a very close thing.
About a month after D Day we were sent down South again to West Hampnet, again for close escort duties. On one occasion we were part of an escort for a big force that was sent to bomb Caen, and it was during that raid I saw anti-aircraft shell bursts called Scarecrows. When the shell burst, it looked like a flaming bomber. It didn't do any damage but was supposed to have a psychological effect on our bomber crews. We didn't see any fighters but there was an awful lot of flak. My flight commander's (Mike Giddings) aircraft was hit and he had to divert to an aerodrome on the south coast, with me as his number two. We had so little fuel his engine cut out while going down the runway. We eventually flew back to Manston where we were based by then. Manston was an interesting aerodrome because they had the first Meteor squadron based there. It was our first jet fighter, but it never flew over Germany, only against the doodlebugs [V1 flying bombs]. One of the flight commanders had trained with me in America so he allowed me to sit in the cockpit. I wasn't supposed to, because it was very secret with lots of guards round it.
Do you remember the film "A Bridge Too Far", about a major paratroop assault against the bridges at Arnhem in Northern Holland? The troops needed supplies dropping to them by Dakotas (0ne of which was flown by Jimmy Edwards and he got the D.F.C.) One day when the Dakotas were going over, we were allocated as escort, but it was so foggy at Manston, you couldn't see more than about 100 yards. The order came through, "We don't care if we lose the whole Manston Wing, you will take off". Manston was one of three aerodromes designated as an emergency aerodrome for bombers returning in trouble after a raid, and it had a very long and very wide runway Because of the fog, we took off with the whole squadron line abreast otherwise it would have been extremely difficult to join up after we climbed through the fog.
Allan - Was there much flak while you were over there?
Stan - Oh yes - a hell of a lot .Quite a few of our aircraft were slightly damaged, and when we got back they landed all over the place - on golf courses and anywhere they could. I was fortunate enough to get back into Manston.
Allan - Did you get hit?
Stan - Yes, I had a few holes but nothing to worry about.
Allan - But no Luftwaffe?
Stan - No, the Luftwaffe was noticeable by its absence. It was mainly flak we had to worry about. Shortly afterwards, the squadron moved up to Bentwaters in Suffolk and converted on to Mustangs, but before then I got a broken neck.
Allan - Oh yes, you fell out of a car.
Stan - I was in Bournemouth on leave. I was a front seat passenger in a little Standard 8 which hit the back of an unlit American army lorry, parked on a dark rainy night. On the impact, my door flew open and I was thrown out, hitting my head on the framework on the way out. Eventually they found that my neck was broken and I was plastered up from the top of my head to below my bum. After I’d fully recovered, I re-joined the squadron at Bentwaters and converted on to Mustangs. That was the beginning of 1945. With the extra fuel in the Mustang, we were able to do much longer escort trips, nearly all the way to Berlin---but again no Luftwaffe, just flak.
While we were stationed at Bentwaters I bought a 1929 Austin 7 for £10 (yes ten pounds). I drove it home on leave once, and Dad and I had great fun converting it from a box body into a two seater open top one, using lots of ply-wood, lengths of 3" by 4" wood and spare parts from Trents motor car scrap yard in Parkstone. After the war was over, our squadron was chosen to go to Berlin and escort Churchill back from the Potsdam Conference ( he’d just lost the election, though nobody knew it until a day or two later). Half way there, my number two developed slight engine trouble so I had to escort him back to Bentwaters. The rest of the squadron went on to Berlin. He got his aircraft fixed and we took off again. However, the ground crew had orders always to clean up the cockpit after a sortie taking out any maps or bits and pieces, so when we were on our way and just crossing the Dutch coast, I looked for my map and all I had was what was called an Aircrew Map of Europe on a piece of paper the size of A4 - not much good for navigating to Berlin! I saw an airfield below and landed and got the correct maps. We spent the night there and went on to Berlin the next morning. About four days later we escorted Churchill back, but going over the Dutch coast one of our aircraft started to have engine trouble and I was detailed to escort him in to a Dutch airfield on the coast, called Knocke-sur-Mer. We had a fantastic ten days there with the Dutch Air Force really looking after us, until a part was flown in from England to repair the engine and we then flew back to Bentwaters.
The war was over then and volunteers were asked for to go to Canada to be instructors on Harvards. I thought that this was just the job, because I’d been an instructor on Harvards (AT6) in America, so I volunteered.
Allan – Was that when you decided you were going to stay and make a career in the air force?
Stan – Oh no. That was later. Anyway, we were sent to an instructors school at Upavon in Wiltshire and I found that not only had the Canadian scheme been cancelled, but that we were to be trained as instructors on a twin engined trainer called an Oxford. I didn’t like that idea at all. I’d never flown a twin before anyway, so after a few hours I packed it in. I was then sent on an Admin course at Hereford and started a few years of admin work, including being Station Adjutant at Middle Wallop and Manston, as well a spell at H.Q No. 11 Group Headquarters at Uxbridge. I was due to be released at the end of 1945, but at that time, you could apply to have your release postponed by 12 or 18 months or two years. I decided I’d like to stay on a bit longer, but I was still in the Civil Service and they had to approve and they said I could only do another 12 months, so I resigned, put in for a short service commission of four years, and got it. Almost immediately I was posted to India.
Allan – Were you a Flight Lieutenant at that time?
Stan Yes. I was in India for nearly three years. At first I was in Bombay at the Base Personnel Office, which looked after the records of the 27,000 or so airmen in India.
Allan – Did you see much of the troubles at the time?
Stan – A certain amount. When India split up into Moslem Pakistan and Hindu India, there was a lot of trouble in the sub-continent. I was put in charge of 100 airmen, (I was allowed to pick them myself), and sent up to R.A.F. Mauripur, Karachi, in Pakistan. My bearer and his family were Muslims so I took him with me and paid for his family to move from Calcutta up to Karachi. This became the last British base in the sub-continent and all Army and R.A.F personnel, plus wives and children in many cases, came to Mauripur until they were put on a boat. It was a pretty hectic time. Our team’s job was to decide which airmen of the 27,000 went where when they left India. We were supplied with numbers, trades and ranks required by the various theatres in the world, including U.K., and we had to decide who went where. Another team made all the arrangements for them to get on a boat and go. It was quite a task. When the job was over, Mauripur was given over to the Pakistan Air Force and the R.A.F. formed a large Staging Post there and I became adjutant. It was there that I heard that Dad had died. I applied for compassionate posting home so I could help Mum sort things out, but in the meantime I was posted as adjutant at R.A.F. Shaibah, near Basra, Iraq. I wasn’t there for long before I was sent home.
I applied to go back on to flying again and I was sent on a refresher course on - believe it or not - Oxfords. During my course I read in the Aeroplane magazine that I had been granted a permanent commission in the Secretarial Branch. I had applied when I was in India, but for the General Duties Branch, that is the flying branch. So I whistled down to the Ministry of Defence and fortunately persuaded them to change my permanent commission to General Duties Branch. I was posted to Horsham St Faiths (which is now Norwich Airport) on to 34 Squadron which was employed acting as targets for the army anti-aircraft gunnery practice - not with live ammo against us fortunately! There were four Meteor squadrons on the same station and I talked my way into being posted on to one of them, No. 257 Squadron. And with that squadron I eventually became Flight Commander and, for a short time, temporary squadron commander.
It was at Horsham St Faiths that I met Norma and I even took her up in a Meteor Mk.7 aircraft. We were married in Hythe, Kent on 11th February 1950 with you as our page-boy all dressed up in your finery.
Allan – I remember that. Was that the first time you'd flown a jet aircraft?
Stan - Yes, and there were no dual aircraft at first. You were just given the Pilots Notes to read and a few words from the Flight Commander and you were off.
Allan - It must have been very different from a propeller aircraft.
Stan - Oh yes. It was like a bomb up your backside when you took off. It was while I was on 257 that I had my only real accident. We were on air gunnery practice at R.A.F. Acklington, Northumberland when my brakes failed completely on landing. I opened up one engine to swing round off the runway because there were lots of runway-making machines just off the end and I didn't want to run into them, shut down both engines while I was still rolling and eventually came to an abrupt halt straddling a gully and ploughed into a railway embankment. Apparently I was describing my actions to the control tower all the time, but I don't remember that. I was knocked out for a short time when my head hit the gunsight, but apart from that I was O.K. The aircraft wasn't so good though! The squadron moved to Wattisham shortly after that and it was then that Adrian was born, in Hythe, on 15th November 1950. My flying tour was over about then and I was posted as adjutant on a G.C.I. (Ground Controlled Interception) station at Wartling, near Eastbourne. My next posting was as Chief Ground Instructor at a Meteor Advanced Flying School at Full Sutton, near York. It was while we lived in York that Nina was born on the 10th January 1953, and we bought our first car - an old 1931 Daimler Light 15. We called it Jumbo. After that tour I did another quick refresher course on Meteors and was posted to command No. 611 Squadron, Royal Auxilliary Air Force, at Hooton Park.
Allan - Where's that?
Stan - In Cheshire near Chester. Actually 611 squadron was the West Lancs squadron, but their home airfield at Woodvale in Lancashire was grass and was no good for the Meteors, so they joined up with No. 610 Squadron, the City of Chester R. Aux. A. F. squadron, at Hooton Park.
Allan - Was this when you were at Willaston?
Stan - Yes. We were in a hiring there until we moved into a quarter on the station. When my tour was over, I was posted to Headquarters 2nd Tactical Air Force on the Air Staff, at Rheindahlen, Munchen Gladbach, Germany. That's where we bought our new Mercedes 190.
Allan - Rheindahlen's a railway test track now, isn't it?
Stan - I believe it is After a year I was promoted to Wing Commander and posted as Wing Commander Admin at R.A.F. Wildenrath (which is now Dusseldorf Airport) and it was there that you and Mum came out to stay with us.
Allan - I remember.
Stan - After 18 months I was selected to attend Staff College as a student at R.A.F. Andover – that was in 1959 – and when the years course was over, I was appointed as commanding officer of No. 33 Maintenance Unit at R.A.F. Lyneham. It was a large civilian-manned unit renovating Meteors and Canberras for the R.A.F. I had three R.A.F. test pilots - although I also did some of the testing – and two other R.A.F. officers. After three years I was seconded to the Ministry of Aviation to a department called Flying Operations. We were responsible for ensuring that the aircraft firms civilian test pilots - and some of them were quite famous pilots, like John Cunningham, Bill Bedford, Brian Trubshaw, and Jimmy Dell – were up to date with their flying hours and instrument ratings, approving low level and supersonic test areas and tracks, and safeguarding their aerodromes. That didn’t mean guarding them, it meant ensuring that trees and buildings didn’t obstruct their take offs and landings and that the runways were long enough before permission was given to use them - particularly important for a maiden flight of a new aircraft. About half way through my tour I was posted to the R.A.F. Staff College at Bracknell on the Directing Staff, but my Air Commodore vetoed it and I had to complete my three years. I was still wanted at Bracknell so off I went. During my last six months, an Air Ministry Order came out offering premature release for officers of my seniority, with a gratuity. I had a yen to leave the service and teach mathematics in Cornwall, so I took it. I should have been due for promotion when I finished my tour, although there is no “due” for promotion - it’s by selection - and one of my friends at M.O.D. advised me to wait until after the promotion list came out before deciding to retire, but I had already decided o leave.
Allan – What was the episode at the Paris Air Show that, as you said after a few drinks, may have cost you your Group Captainship?
Stan – Well, it wasn’t really like that. At the time, I was in charge of planning all staff college visits, and I did all the arrangements for the Paris Show. I’d arranged with the Assistant Air Attache for three coaches and three interpreters to take us from the aerodrome to the show. We got there to find a V.I.P. tour had been arranged and used up the interpreters, so we had to persuade a couple of French officers who spoke a little English to come with us. There was a Group Captain in charge of the second and third coach, with me i/c the first, and all coaches were told to keep in convoy. About half way there, the third coach with my own Group Commander in charge, overtook us and disappeared into the distance. Anyway, the two remaining coaches got to the Air Show, and with our schoolboy French and a little help from the French officers, agreed to meet all three coaches at a certain hangar at 5.30. And that was it. We had no idea where the other coach party was so we couldn’t tell them of the arrangements. If they met up with students from the first two coaches, they would have known where to go, and when, but some didn’t and eight of them spent the night in Paris. In the meantime, the Group Captain who had been in the third coach had taken over trying to sort things out. Apart from anything else, only one coach turned up instead of three. I had been drinking with some test pilots I knew and was about twenty minutes late turning up, by which time the Group Captain was fuming. When I heard there were eight missing, I said I’d walk round the show and try to find them, and that I would make my own way back to our aerodrome. I couldn’t find anybody, so with the help of the test pilots I got a lift out to the aerodrome and joined up with the rest. But of course, a lot of the problem was caused by my Group Captain allowing his coach to overtake the others and park in a completely different place. But I was in charge of the visit so I carried the can. An amusing sequel was during the end of course pantomime, when across the stage came a Wing Commander carrying a bucket. One of the two chaps on the stage said “Who’s that?” and got the reply “Oh he was in charge of the Paris Air Show.” It brought the house down. Anyway, Staff College was my last posting in the R.A.F. and then I became a civilian again.
Allan - Thanks for all that. Just a little postscript. It struck me when we were all at an R.A.F. ball with Adrian, that the young pilots weren't so keen on hearing about flying Spitfires, they wanted to talk about the Lightning. Didn't you fly one?
Stan - Yes. When I was at the Ministry of Aviation. I had to make staff visits to the various aircraft firms so I used to use the Meteors of the Empire Test Pilots School at Farnborough...
Allan - You flew Meteors for a lot of years....
Stan - Oh yes. I've a few thousand hours in on various marks of Meteor. Anyway, I went up to Warton, in the north of Lancashire, where they were producing Lightnings, and they had just produced the first two seater, the Mk. 5. I persuaded the chief test pilot, Beau Beaumont, to let me go up in it. I wasn't allowed to take off or land it but I did handle it in the air.
Allan - Why were those young R.A.F. pilots, all those years later, so interested in the Lightning?
Stan - Well, it was a fantastic aircraft, and the fastest fighter aircraft in service at that time.
Allan - What was the top speed?
Stan - I don't really know. ...Mach 1.5 I think.
Allan - Which would be in miles per hour?
Stan - Just over 1000 mph
Allan - And that was faster than anything the Americans had at that time?
Stan - In service, yes. I was given a certificate to say I'd gone through the speed of sound, and also a "ten ton" tie to show I'd flown at over 1000 mph.
Allan - Thanks for that, Stan I hope some later generations of the family listen to this. I'm sure they'll find it interesting.
[Tape ends]